Thanks for such 'useful' feedback, Rugster. I'll try to alleviate some of your ignorance (which would have easily been cured had you bothered to read the changelog I supply with my mod).

I have not changed the accuracy nor the range of any of the rockets or missiles.

Your problem (besides not doing enough reading) is that Altar changed them in patch 1.1, and they've been 'broken' ever since. It's one of the things I'm investigating. Not that you care, since you were so quick to blame my mod, and then remove it. There are several threads on these forums discussing the problems with rockets (and grenades) after the patch. Please do us all a favor and do some reading before you post.

Have you ever tried using 9mm ammo to stop a person? I personally know people who have. It takes lots of bullets, or shots into critical spots, to put someone down. It is a well-known problem with the round. Which is one of the reasons 9mm pistols have 14-15 round magazines. (They need them.) It is not, as you claim, an issue of poor manufacture. Again, please do everyone a favor and spend some time educating yourself. May I suggest Google?

The DE in my mod is representative of the Beretta 93R. The 'real' DE is the new .50AE version. BTW, the US Army has begun reissuing Colt M1911A1s due to the many complaints about the lack of effectiveness of the 9mm Beretta. Of course you'd know that had you done some homework ...

Thanks for the wonderfull mod. I grabbed it as soon as i saw it. Installation was clean and painless and everything seems to be working. Love the changes espcially the new weapons and have been checking this thread several times a day since I found it. I can't wait to see what you add in next.

P.S. I have a little experince in 3d models and access to a couple modeling programs(3d studio, Rhino 3/4, and polytrans) if the devs ever release how to create models for the game and you need any done let me know. I am not very good but could use the practice and have time to kill

I'm glad you like my mod. BTW, post #1 has the to-do list.

Indeed I will be needing any and all help with models for my mod. I cannot do it myself. I neither have the proper programs, and much more importantly, I lack the artistic talent for drawing (or playing music). When the time comes, rest assured that I will ask for any and all volunteers to do the many new models that my mod needs. Thanks for offering!

To add something to the 9mm discussion, when i was in the army (1993), there were stories going around from the Desert Storm campaign two years earlier. Our squad leaders were issued with the H&K MP-5 (9mm), which was the same weapon issued to a number of special units operating down there.

It was told of numerous confrontations when soldiers had emptied entire magazines into the enemy, who fell down...and got up again. Subsequent examination showed that the penetrating rate was appaling, and a number of bullets didnt even penetrate the outer layer of cloth / gear that any soldier has on from ranges below 50 meters.

What we were told was that at ranges over 20 or so meters, MP-5's and the Glock 17 (medic sidearm) was completely useless, and the standing joke was that shooting someone with those weapons would just make him mad.

I heard some of the same things from some local law enforcement officers (who are also in the ARNG). Most police officers I see carry either the old classic M1911A1, or they carry a Glock 22 (.40S&W), or a SIG-Sauer P220 (in .45ACP) or P229 (in .40S&W). There are a few old die-hards who still carry revolvers. But NONE of the folks I talk with carry 9mm anything.

It's very telling that many (most?) security agencies prefer weapons like the MAC-10 and the HK non-9mm SMGs. 9mm sucks.

Hi ShadoWarrior,

i've been using your mod ever since version 1.2 (or so) and i'm thoroughly enjoying it.
i've finished the game once now, and have started 3 new games with the new patch and a variety of mods, ammounting to ALOT of playtime

Your mod is a solid extra for the game, i wouldn't go without it!
anyone who i advise playing aftershock i advise installing your mod, even without playing the game out-of-the-box first.
The rebalancing you've done truly makes the game far more diverse and challenging.

In my first go without mods i could just finish the game with 6 snipers, and the dual wielding ranger, melee commando, droner and heavy weapon specialist would just be a nice addon to toy with, but wouldnt come close in comparison to the effectivenes of snipers.

You've fixed this quite nicely with your mod and i now have to use every class i can get, which is way more fun and more challenging.
However in the version 2.7 you introduced a new sniper rifle that IMHO brought back a bit of the sniper pwnage, which i was very happy to do without.
Offcourse the sniper pwnage is to blame on the map design, 80% of the maps are pretty much a "sniper" maps, and once mapping tools are released il look into creating a lot more close quarter maps as in aftermath.
However, seeing as the maps already give the snipers an advantage, i think this should be compromised by gimping the sniper rifles a bit untill we can get some proper maps, even if this doesn't do the sniper rifles justice when compared to their real life counterparts.

The .50 cal DE was also a very nice addon in the early stages of the game, not overpowered or anything and there just at the right time.

Also the m60e3 is a bit on the strong side, with its enormous range effectively negating the strategic weakness of heavy weapons.
Thus making assault rifles pretty useles, theyre supposed to be the mid to long range option (imho)and the m60e3 effectively replaces this.
It's a bit of reality vs. game dynamics/strategy there...

What i also find disturbing (not your fault) is the uselesness of my commando's once armor comes into play. What good is a commando besides melee combat?
They kicked ass early on, but now i have 4 of them sitting on the couch in my base since i started fighting cultist with armor.
The rangers with 2 mac 10's with AP ammo kick their asses in close quarter combat.
So maybe some plasmablade or something could make commando's usefull again in the latter of the game?

And btw, the new assault rifle that came with v2.8 (hkg12 or something i believe) uses the caseless ammo, but it is stated nowhere if this is AP or soft ammo, so i had to try first in a mission, and even now im not sure yet

I've only just gotten to the Wargots with your mod (playing 3 different games on veteran atm...dont ask) and damn...these suckers are unkillable.
i've only done 2 missions so far but don't u think u might have overdone it a little on the resistances?? :S

well all this aside, many many kudo's for this great mod!
Good luck with the new versions!

greetings,
Leon

Leon, thanks for the feedback.

Some of what you wrote is a tad contradictory. You say that the L115A1 is too strong (it's realistic, and proportional to the MSG90 and M82A1), then a bit later you say that the WGs are too tough. Huh? Well, obviously the L115A1 isn't "ownage" when it's inadequate against WGs. I did warn you to switch to lasers.

The L115A1 doesn't do as much damage as the M82A1, yet you didn't object to the Barrett. The L115A1 is basically a cross between a MSG90 and a Barrett. Damage midway between them. Range on all 3 guns is almost the same. So in what context do you think the L115A1 is disbalancing? With the L115A1 I get some outright kills where before I got unconscious. Except for Morelmen, where I now get one-shot unconsciousness rather than needing two shots. Not a big deal (IMO), because if I didn't have the L115A1 and I really wanted the big oomph I'd just pack along the M82A1. The L115A1 doesn't let you do anything you couldn't already do. It's just a little bit more convenient to carry and use.

The progression of the game is this:

1. You use the Reticulan weapons until you get enough of the HK G33s and XM8s. Reason? The starting (Reticulan) weapons have better range than most other human weapons.

2. You equip laser sniper rifles as soon as you can get them from dead Cultists. These will do quite nicely until you can make projectile sniper rifles. Try to conserve human batteries. You'll need them for the WGs.

3. You switch to lasers to fight WGs. That'll do nicely until you can make human plasma weapons. Once you can, replace laser rifles and standard shotguns with plasma equivalents. Go chew up WGs. The laser sniper rifles will still be effective against the weaker WGs, and even against PA (if you have 3 or 4 snipers concentrating their fire against the mech).

Any MG should out-range and out-damage an assault rifle. It's a SQUAD support weapon, not a personal firearm. The assault rifles retain an advantage that the MGs lack: speed. Your first shots with an XM8 come out significantly faster than the M60. And the rifles do not require the special training MGs do, plus they weigh less.

I tried to increase the challenge and retain the feel of danger from the WGs by increasing their resistance. It's also thematic. Their resistance is not "overdone". It's, disappointing shall I say, when folks were happily machinegunning WGs left and right with careless abandon. Not any more. Oh, the MGs can still mow down the weaker WG soldiers, but it'll take most of a burst (or two) to do it. And you can forget trying it against a Priest or mech. And that kick-ass big-bore sniper rifle that owns mutants and Cultists is about as effective against WG heavies as standard bullets are against flatsters: not very. You need to adapt tactics to the enemies and not become complacent that you can always use the same weapons against all foes.

I have a solution planned to address advanced melee. For now you'll just have to accept that using a katana against a mech is a BAD idea. A really really really bad idea. They are still effective versus Cyborgs, but your Commandos will no longer get those one-swing kills that you grew too accustomed to. heh

Finally, regarding the G11 ammo (added in v2.0 of the mod, not 2.08), it's soft. Should be obvious, since the description didn't say anything about it being armor-piercing. It's not a weapon meant to be used against mid-game enemies like WGs and Cyborgs.

Have you considered the MP ammo for the Barrett?

Possible as a one shot mag with improved effectivness agains wargot power armour?

Since this ammo is the main reason 12,7mm weapons became effective again, I mean.

http://www.nammo.com/medium_calibre/12,7mm/127mm.html

http://www.nammo.com/medium_calibre/index.html

http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/raufoss/

Thank you for providing those links. Wow. However, it wouldn't cause more damage to WGs mechs/Priests. It would, though, be devastating to anything else, such as regular WG soldiers, Cyborgs, Morelmen, etc. -- which can already be shredded by regular AP ammo effectively, so MP would be ugly overkill.

The reason it won't be better against the WG heavy armor is that their armor resists the *initial* penetration. The MP is designed to fragment *after* penetration. What you'd actually want to see is .50cal SLAP used against the WGs. But I'd need to create a new "super-AP" aka "ultra-hard" damage type. I'll do that when I can mod in new damage types (along with "stun").

hmm, looks like ShadoWarrior knows what he is doing.
I`m going to test this one after getting out of work.

Btw, more armors would be a nice add for the game

I can understand the gamerelated problems with the MP ammo, as things stand today.

The SLAP, or sabot round would be more effective against armour, discarding it or treating it as lower value, but for damage against an armoured opponent it is not optimal. Simply because its penetrative power would carry it through things like body armour without breaking up and add damage that way. This is an anti-tank weapon.

The MP round has a tungsten core for added armour penetration. It is capable of penetrating and wrecking 50mm aluminium panser. Since wargots are bigger than us the round would expand halfway, 2/3 of the way through their bodies. Specially with the Power Armour as I expect it too be thicker and harder than 2mm aluminium.

The Norwegian army recently started upgrading the M113 APC from 40mm too 2*40mm armour plating to protect them against the MP round. It would penetrate the outer layer, igniting the charge while passing through the armour plating. The smaller fragments would then be unable too penetrate the next layer.

I appreciate that the round might not be possible, and not really balancing. But I do think it would be effective.

It is one thing to penetrate hardened aluminum alloy. Several smaller-caliber (smaller than 12.7mm) sniper rifle cartridges can easily do this. (The M113 is a death-trap. I used to drive one when I was in the army. I was very very happy that I never had to risk my life in combat in one of those aluminum coffins.) It is quite another matter to penetrate ceramic-metal composite armors. And then there is alien armor technology, which could have molecular bonding on the surface that is so strong that the material is virtually impervious to penetration, even by coherent light.

So, it doesn't matter what the thickness is of a Wargot. You have to be able to scratch the surface armor first.

I will, however, concede one point regarding MP ammo: with a tungsten core it's functionally equivalent to SLAP. Now DU is another matter ...


Oh, it'd be way too effective on anything less armored than a WG mech. MP is SLAP and API combined into one neat (nasty) package. I shudder to think what a defender drone, armed with my drone .50cal heavy MG, would do to things using MP ammo. Even WG mechs would fear such a killer drone!

I know, I drove one too. Without the upgrades. Only thing changed since the 1954 design was engine and heater.



But you are right. I forgot to think about armour of monobonded carbon and things like that. This is Science Fiction.
I wouldn't count on coherent light as a weapon. I know thats laser, but from what I remember from my physics studies it will suffer from focusing troubles due too heatloss to air and the constant need to punch a new hole through the air. Lasers as weapons are most suited to vacuum



Yeah What armour it can't penetrate it will rip to pieces in short order. At least what armour human technology can produce.


oh' and I haven't fully understood the quote tool. All quotes are from ShadoWarriors post.

errr, why would they even bother doing that ?

As ShadoWarrior aptly said, they are deathtraps, plain and simple. I was stationed on one when in the army (or rather, i was in the footsquad attached to one). A normal NM-135 (just an M-113 with a "roof" and a 20mm turret, picture here and here), i remember they said that it would be hard pressed to stop even normal MG-3 fire (that didnt inspire great confidence, especially since most incoming fire would most likely be substantially heavier than small arms, hehe).

Since then, they have upgraded the mainstay APC to the Swedish CV90, i imagine that the M-113's that are left are mainly command wagons, TOW launchers, etc. Sounds like an incredible waste of money to upgrade vehicles that are as good as obsolete

I messed around with another underbarrel attachment you might want to consider. You remember those old 5.56 miniguns that are slightly bigger than a helmet? I took the grenade launcher model and made a under barrel minigun with it. Nice little point defense weapon if you need rapid fire with knockdown/push effect on incoming targets. You of course burn though ammo fast since you're firing at a very fast rate.

Thanks Shadowarrior, your reply was very informative!
i hadn't noticed the switching to laser weapons yet mainly due to the disposition i was left with from playing the unmodded game, but i will now!

About the sniper rifles:
the barret requires that you lay down before you fire, and my men often stand up again or have to shift around to change targets while using it too.
So a safe estimation imho is that it takes about 3 times as long to aim as the L115A1.
Now if i relate that time taken to the effective damage output, then i conclude that the barret is actually a less effective weapon in terms of damage output vs aiming time.
Furthermore, not only is this time taken important on relative time/damage but moreso for the enemies getting closer to you and taking shots at you with their rifles.
Therefore the L115A1 also gets more effective as the range from the target get's shorter.
the barret might do a load more damage, but the L115A1 often does enough to throw them back, or make them unconscious as well.

Now all this is not an assumption, this is an explanation of what i concluded from trying them in many missions, the barret just couldnt stand up to the L115A1.
The reason i leave the other sniper rifles out of this, is that the L115A1 is basicly just the better version of the others.

That aside i loved the having to lay down for the barret, it added some real strategy, you had to really plan and lay your snipers down before attacking, but the relative effectivenes of the L1155A1 made this a too high price to pay and effectively removed it again.

On the argument of the L115A1 vs. WG not being pwnage:
You state it being useless vs WG's anyway,
and since the other sniper rifles aren't pulled in the comparison with WG either, why would you explain the L115A1 "pwnage" with WG's?
If it's not usefull on WG's it'll be used for the other enemies:
mainly cultists, and therefore the comparison should be based on this group,
just like all the other sniper rifles.
and, imho it's just a little too good against them.

Then about the MG:
You have a good point and i understand your dynamics behind this now.
However, the soldier thats firing the MG also has the heavy armor skill, and will most likely be wearing it too.
Therefore the disadvantage of taking a long time start firing (getting shot first) is already negated a bit by heightened resistances.
secondly, a MG with 10 shots will kill the bastard in one go (nearly always), and the AR burst usually won't, and the enemy will have the chance to fire back.
Again negating the disadvantage of a slower start-fire rate a bit.

Ingame i've basicly just noticed that in comparison the MG's makes the assault rifles a bit useless, maybe make the time to start shooting with MG's a bit longer still?

All this aside,
I'd like to make clear that i'm not attacking you on this or anything,
just trying to give you some constructive criticism that i hope you will take into consideration, as i have great respect for what you've done so far and am enjoying it thoroughly! .

Also: can't wait for the end-game melee stuff!

Greetings,
Leon

Re: Commando effectiveness late game

...bearing in mind I haven't *been* to late game...

By the time you're in the last 1/3 of the game, Commandos aren't that great. Is that what I'm hearing? And is it solely due to weaponry? In that case, new melee weapons!

New models? Well sure, they'd be nice, but that's not the issue. Ideas:

-- Monomolecular blades: Sharp down to a single atom/molecule

-- Energized blades: Not talking lightsabers here, but what about a blade that is able to electrify itself or create a layer of plasma just ahead of its blade? Use ammunition.

More ammo for the blowgun. Possibilities:

-- Acidic darts: Acid or other substance that eats through armor

-- Gas clouds: Nail a target with a dart and it releases a cloud of toxin that affects enemy statistics (movement, accuracy, melee damage, etc). Not sure if this can be done with the game engine.

-- Explosive darts: Mini-grenade, armor-piercing damage (shaped charge)


One hit Commando kills? Probably not. But enough to give the Commando a fighting chance.

Speaking of "energized" blades!

Compose-able blades. Once you get the basic energy-enhanceable blade, various addons are then researchable. Or recoverable from Cultists, if you survive an attack from one of these babies!

Query: Does med/hvy armor slow you down? If yes, a new type of armor that encumbers as much as light armor does but has better protection and an option slot (cloak, etc). If it were simply medium armor minus the encumbrance, would there ever be a reason not to use it? Not sure about the power level of this concept.

Enhancement slots: Blade, Hilt. The weapon is a combination of those two, and the base sword weapon would be nothing more than a placeholder for the composed weapon. Clueless if you can have that base weapon deal zero damage and define the damage solely through add-on components.

Hilt might have Capacitors that increase the amount of ammo (technobabble later), a weak (33%/50%) Forcefield unit, or a Booster of some sort that uses extra ammo for additional damage. Don't know what's possibly with the game engine, if the first or last one is possible. Perhaps a device to add an additional damage type.

Pause: Can weapons do multiple types of damage? If so, great! If not, scratch that last hilt idea and some of the blades.

Blade could deal armor piercing (monomolecular) or "ultra hard" when modded in as suggested above, plasma, laser, poison...mmmm...poison blades...

I digress.

Sorry for the spammage, just want to get some of these ideas out of my head. I write technobabble for a big Homeworld 2 mod, and have roleplayed in several science-fiction universes. My ideas for Aftershock will probably only be useful once the game progresses to the later stages.

mono katanas are an old cyberpunk 2020 classic.

vibroblades, resonation enhances the sharpness of the blade.

Plasma torch. continous stream short ranged plasma 'thrower' like a flame thrower but hotter.

Turbosledge hammer and powerfist... alright this aint fallout

Other weapons that might work

AICW like the OICW though bit smaller and a bullpup rifle config.

LMG11 300 round mag, and no cookoff!

Yeh well you might be right with that, but even so the mods dont half mess up the game, cant reload saves now because the mods were removed, these are saves from a new game made after the mods were removed the game itself still seems to think they're there, presumbably the mobs changes other files within the game thats causing this.

But, fortunately reinstalling and repatching isnt a serious issue.

Have noticed that rocket launchers are totally screwed. Although i didnt prior to using the mods.

As for the issue with 9mm ammo, you should stop reading bullshit and try using the weapons... but that'd probably not be a great idea...

homework is nothing on experience. 6 yrs in queens own highlanders, 5 yrs in 15th parachute regiment gives me plenty of weapons experience. Theres nothing wrong with 9mm ammo or weapons that use them, its in the making of the ammo that theres a fault, american and especially chinese 9mm ammo is rubbish. Just as Dell computers are rubbish. Use junk to make something you get a junk product.

Simple as that.

Um just saying that a 9mm bullet hits with all the kinetic energy of a baseball being thrown at you.

And 9mm is fine against unarmoured targets, but even basic body armour can stop penetration, and blunt force tramua isn't going to bring someone down in a hurry.

I wouldn't know if the 15th Parachute Regiment uses any 9mm firearms on a regular basis, but nearly three years with the Beretta M92F has told me that 9mm is only good for killing slow-moving zombies.

First, I asked if you have ever shot someone with 9mm. Not if you've ever fired one. How many years you have in the Queen's army isn't relevant to the question I asked you. Shooting dummy targets does not count in the discussion. Unless you have actually shot someone with 9mm, please refrain from expressing your very obviously biased, unfounded opinions.

Oh, and for the record, with the exception of Russian-made arms, and second-hand accounts from people I trust to tell me the truth (in regards to people being shot by 9mm), my experience with firearms is from actual use, not from reading about them. So I'll kindly ask you to not insult me. Oh, and if you do so again, I'll be asking one of the moderators to do something about it.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with most American-made ammo. (The only reason I say 'most' is because there's always some exception to 'all'.) Blaming ammo-makers for the poor performance of an outdated, inadequate design speaks volumes about your 'experience'.

Make that "slow moving, naked zombies".

Updated the mod to version 2.09!
(please see first post in thread for download link)

I've added 3 new techs. The XM25 and L115A1 (new items from v2.06) now require these new techs. Warning: if you are currently manufacturing either the XM25 or the L115A1, I *strongly* advise that you complete the manufacture before applying the version 2.09 mod. The game may do strange things, including crash, if you are manufacturing an item and you suddenly no longer have the technology to make it.

I've also tweaked the UB shottie's magazine, and corrected two ammo. (The .338 was using the much-heavier weight for .50cal as I hadn't yet found the correct weight of the cartridge at the time I added the item.)

The new tech requirement for the L115A1 should help a bit towards balancing this weapon, since it will now be slightly later in the game before you can make it.

With regards too the 9mm I would just add that the recommended use of 9mm is either pumping many rounds in the enemy, or hitting the head.

The way I was thaught to use 9mm close range weapons was 2 in the chest, slow them down and delay their fire. Then one in the head to make a kill. The 9mm is weak and the only reason to use it is the large mag capasity. Useful for scaring people. Firing 15 rounds on them does that, but you need them all to kill.


Edit:
The reason 9mm was popular is that if you miss the one you were aiming at, the bullet has so low penetration power that it will stop in the nearest wall. Thus making it safer for SWAT teams to use in hostage situations. Less likely that stray rounds will ill hostages, and no chance of killing the next door neighbour.

But the lack of power has made the 9mm fall out of favor insituations where silencers are not used. 9mm is one of the easiest calibers to silence.

As I mentioned earlier, none of the police officers I've seen carry 9mm. The ones that don't carry .45ACP carry a .40S&W pistol. Most of the .40S&W pistols have magazines as large as those of 9mm pistols, yet the .40S&W round has almost as much stopping power as the .45ACP. There is simply no good reason to use 9mm, period. Even H&K sees this when their newest "standard" SMG, the UMP, is available in .45ACP and .40S&W. (It is also available in 9mm, but H&K doesn't significantly advertise that particular model.)

Getting very annoyed that virtually every sniperweapon in the game was way better than the Barret vs WGs (simply cause you have to do headshots and crit to actually do dmg with the snipers (except laser ones that is), I decided to try remove the prone req. to see if I could get called shots with it.

After unpacking your mod I discoverd that you had actually done a mistake with the Barret.

With in the equipment.txt files definition of the Barret you have the line:

_use_ability_name STR "Sniper bonus"

which should be:

_use_ability_name STR "Sniper equipment"

Fixing this, and voila Called Shots luv for the Barret too.... =)

Hrat.

Excuse me, but it wasn't a mistake. It was my deliberate intent. I even mentioned it in this thread at the time I made the release.

Great Mod ShadoWarrior. I broke down and started over using 2.07 and then upgraded to 2.08. One thing that bothers me is why the XM8 model for the XM25? Why not the other GL model? Also is the XM25 supposed to be one handed? My Medic carries the XM25 in one hand and the medkit in the other.

Also this may just be horribly bad luck on my part but after around 5 cultist fights I have had no Gyrostabilizers drop but worse is no Scanners have dropped, so no Detection equipment. My premod games these items dropped like mad.

Thanks for all the hard work you have put into this.

Frozen Warrior

Do a Google search on the XM25 and look at a pic. The weapon is remarkably similar in appearance to the XM8. Both the XM8 and XM25 share many design features, and IIRC, they were designed by the same group of people.

The XM25 is a 2-handed weapon. This error will be corrected in v2.10. Thanks for spotting it.


You're just having really lousy luck. BTW, my first scanner was a Wargot one. None of the Cultists ever dropped one. I, too, have had periods of bad luck. S*** happens.

Ok Thanks!

Frozen Warrior

I see that SW agreed to this, which was approriate in early game I guess. But it kinda defeats the purpose ambidexterious chip for cyborgs. No longer are there any "1-and-a-half-handed" smgs (as the game actually calls them), that you can/should be able to duelwield as a Cyborg.





Well, I didn't remember this last statement, which is very old. And also prior to the prone requirement on the Barret. There have been serveral posts later about the missing called shots with the Barret. And if I remember correctly, you wrote it off as a gameengine issue with the prone req. But now we know thats not the case. So you're not totally excused.

Anyhow, I figure that the short time that it actually takes to go from 1st level sniper to 2nd level, (ie the delay that you artificially put on the usage of the weapon), doesnt warrent the loss of called shots. Its just a short period where you won't be able to use the Barret, while it is short of useless compared to other snipers against WGs due to the aforementioned lack of Called Shots.

This is simply not true. The Uzi and MAC-10 are one-handed. As will be the soon-to-be-added MP7A1. Shame on you, hrat. You should check your facts.


Okay, I'll take the blame if you insist. For the record, while there is a bug in the game that the L3 sniper skill checks to see if a weapon is tagged as "sniper training" (L1), it doesn't check for "sniper bonus" (L2). The L3 skill should check to see if the weapon uses *either* of the two lower-levels. I don't have a problem with the Barrett being victim to this bug. By the same token, if the devs fix that bug and restore the L3 skill to the Barrett, I won't be upset either.


You shouldn't be using projectile weapons against the heavy WGs, period. Use lasers (or plasma). Even the weaker WGs, while still somewhat vulnerable to projectiles, are better dealt with using energy weapons.

Ehh right..
Like dualwielding MP5 and the "heavyer" SMGs wouldnt be far better than the small SMGs. Thats a big nerf on the borgs. So if its shame on anyone for not having their facts straight, its not on me..

And once again on the Barret, while it takes ages for Altar to patch stuff, you can do it quickly, without any hassle. And there's nothing "period" about using laser snipers and nothing else vs WGs.

Hrat, the point is balance. I've taken another look at the SMGs. I'm going to restore the MP5A5E as a one-handed weapon, because it's (just barely) small enough that it can be more-or-less operated with one hand (not well in real life, but this is a game). The Colt 635 and UMP will remain two-handed.

BTW, my borgs kick ass with XM8s. They don't need dual SMGs. And my borgs do their ass-kicking from 1/3 further distance than a MP5. And for close-in work they pull out their katana. Unless the enemy is a WG mech/priest. Those are left for laser snipers and laser machinegunners to deal with.

Regarding the Barrett, I'm not going to argue about it any more. It will remain as is in my mod. Anyone who's not happy about it has four choices: not use the weapon, cope with it, not use the mod, or create their own mod. End of that discussion, please.

You say you fixed the flatsters in your mod. I have searched through it, but I cant find any reference to it, exepct in the research description. Where is it located?

The list for the v2.04 fixes tells you what I did. The actual change is to be found in equipment.txt, lines 11318 and 11323.

Good morning ladies,

I have a question: I am two days away from the WG arrival in my new game... and I noticed I will not be able to have energy weapons by the time they arrive (I have 2 L snipers and 1 L rifle). Am I going to get PWNED by the WGs if I only use my current configuration (XM8/G3A4/Minimi all w/ AP ammo). Should I quit/restart or will it be feasible to survive that mission?

Good morning Saint.

The mix of WGs you get on that mission is random. Be sure to save before the clock runs down. You'll be fine if all you have to deal with are the common soldiers, which is usually what you'll get. Save the lasers for priests & mechs, in case you don't get lucky. You also have the option to remove the Alien Assault 2 mod before you trigger the mission, if you play with that mod plus mine and are worried about being swarmed.

Make damned sure that everyone is packing SPAS 15 (not the 12) with flechettes (or slugs), and that the SPAS is the weapon in their hands, already set to burst, before you go into the mission. (Put your longer-range guns in your pack.) It is quite usual to have 1-3 of your soldiers spawn within a few squares of several Wargots. You'll get to shoot them first (Wargots are slow), but you'll get seriously hurt if you must take the time to draw a weapon from your pack when you are already in close quarters. Plus the SPAS will do more damage than anything shy of a MG at such a range, and the SPAS will fire faster than a MG. Needless to say, take as much AP ammo for all your short to medium-range weapons as you can carry. Don't worry about your speed.

Hm, I think Saint will have not any problem with his setup, G3A4 is strong and maschineguns too, lasers ist strong, but they have not good stopping power.

Have you fought the Wargots using a version of my mod at least 2.06 or higher? Because it doesn't sound like you have. If you haven't, you are going to have a very rude surprise ...

a lot of game have also weapon "slicer" (not sure of the english word, the mecanical thing to cut wood of paralised people in movies)... could have some fun with something incredibly deadly at melee, but heavy , slow and needing energy or oil ?

Could also have a huge noise level, making the owned a nice snipe target but why not some negative effect on enemy psy - or giving advantage on enemy bonus when used (same thing that leadership) ?

A chainsaw? That would be almost useless against both Wargots and Cyborgs. Well, more effective than a katana, but so noisy the net result would be bad for whoever was using it.

Thanks for your quick answer SW, I'll pack up some SPAS-15s with slugs. I haven't met any WGs since I applied your mod (with modified WG stats... don't remember the details, but I remember reading that their protection vs projectiles was pretty high). IIRC there are no Mech/Armour WGs in that mission (pfew...)

I'm waiting to finish the game before I install the Alien Assault rape ™ mod.

thanks "chainsaw" seems the word , you think one could not beat an armor ? When i see the new stuff that stop gunshot for police people , and think also to reflective (anti laser - energy ) material stuff i also notices they are unefective against knives so i was wondering the effec of massive kinetic weapon like the chainsaw

But it's just a why not suggestion so if you dont feel this item, no problem

hehe, nice rename. I play (and test my mod) at Superhero, with Alien Rape-me-too, and (the new) Wargot Death v2.10 ...

SieurNewT > (oui mais tu serai repéré tellement vite que tu ne pourrai même pas l'utiliser, ou alors juste une fois, spece de bourrin va )


Just tell him that he'll be spotted so quickly that he'll never have the opportunities to use it twice

can you create some sort of comparing sheet of currently available weaponry? like, damages, ranges, types of ammo available? i am getting kinda confused now, because the variety of new weapons is really high and seems a little unbalanced to me. just for example, these new ammo types, FL and XP are a total pwnage compared to good old softies, and new rifles are making the old ones (excluding xm8, 'fcourse) just useless pieces of metal

You just did, in French and in English.

Another two problems besides noise is that a chainsaw is heavy, and very awkward to use. Which makes it too slow to be useful in combat. There are too many FPS players out there who have become too accustomed to Doom (and similar games) ...

I'll leave that up to someone else to do. My time is better spent working on the mod. Anyone who uses the mod can compile a table.


The new weapons cannot be found, they must be made. That's one balancing factor right there, as you'll be using the old ones until you can make the new ones. I have not added any XP ammo, that was already in the game. And the only FL ammo I added was for shotguns. Anyone who thinks the weapons are overpowered isn't playing at a high enough difficulty level.